Stay or Go? A Mortgage Originator’s Guide to Changing Companies

Hey, guys. What's up? Welcome back to another exciting episode of lending leadership with the mortgage pros. My name is Robert Fillyaw, managing partner with HMA Mortgage. Excited to be joining my cohorts here. Tom Mills and Dave Holland. Hey, fellas. How are y'all doing today?

What's going on, man?

Doing great. I'm glad to be back. The first one was a

lot of fun. I'm I'm excited. We're just gonna, you know, keep keep getting better and better, gooder and gooder as they say down here in the south and, excited about the topic today. I you know, I wanted to kick this off. We're gonna we're gonna be talking about a little bit about, how do you know, you know, you're in the right place? How do you know you're in the right company? And I heard a really interesting statistic this week. I'm doing some coaching with, Richard Milligan, who is probably the, the OG goat when it comes to recruiting and and everything all things building your team. Right? And he shared a couple stats with me. I'm gonna share with you guys and and kinda kick this conversation off.

Well, the Q4 number is not shocking to me. That that makes sense. Right? Business is usually a little slower in most parts of the country, the Q4, but the fact that 22% of people closing 20,000,000 or less move and 15%, 20 to 50,000,000 in total move, that's that that's a crazy stat to me that that that many people are unhappy. I wonder what that stat looks like 5 years ago or 6 years ago with people getting big sign in signing bonuses that kinda get stuck at their current, spot.

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's certainly gonna slow some people down from moving. I I I wonder I think that while it has something to do with the time of the year and I think you make the the some LOs think make the move in q 4 to start the year off right and the next year. And I I think that's lot of times people are always looking ahead at that next year and waiting to get something started for the next year. And, I think when they look at that, they should they should be looking at what are they putting in place right now and what are they doing right now to to make sure that next year is a good, you know, a great year ahead. And ultimately, sometimes that makes that means a move. But, you know, the average loan officers with their company, I think it's somewhere like two and a half years. So Two

and a half years. Yeah. That's that's also true.

Percent don't really surprise me because it it's gonna have to shake down to that.

Yeah. It's shocking, I think, especially for guys like us who focus so much on retention and and, you know, are blessed, right, with with loan officers that are with us a long time and and come in and really turn into families. So I think that, like, we kinda look at that 2 and a half year number and kinda scratch ours, our heads. I wonder, Tom, to your point, it's interesting. I wonder if, you know, some of these others just go into business planning and starting to to prepare for the next year

Mhmm.

And kinda look at the the year that they're ending, and they're like, well, damn. I I'm nowhere near where I wanna be, and why is that? And, you know, maybe is there a better mouse trap? Is it is there something that I'm missing that I need to go out there and see if if I can find?

It's easy to blame the company that you're at.

Always easy to blame the company.

Right? And, you know, there's a shiny object over here or the CRM's better. You know, I think sometimes their LOs are at a bad company, bad leadership, bad tech, bad ops, whatever the case may be, high rates. But a lot of times, it's it's not the company. They're at they're at a great company. They're a company where people are closing 20, 30, 80, a $100,000,000. Right? Sometimes just the l o, and it's hard to look at yourself, right, and say, I'm the problem and and not the company.

Sure thing.

Well, I

think I think the you know, that that's definitely hard. Right? And I think that's where leadership comes in. It's interesting because I and I've seen this. Right? You can be an LO and be at a great company, but it may not be the company for you. Right? Like and and I think as an originator, this is one of the things I love about our business, and I talk about all the time. Right? There's no one way to do this. There's no one single way to skin a cat. You may be that originator that's like, I need every piece of tech, and that's how you do your business.

You may be the originator that wait for it, Dave, wants tons of flyers. Right? And flyers are your business. I love let's spend

the rest of the show talking about flyers and how it goes.

You may be that originator that you've gotta have the lowest cost on the street. Right? So depending on really kinda how you're building your business and what you're looking to achieve and accomplish and tackle, I think, is gonna be part of, are you at the right shop or not? What is the right shop for you? Those are probably some good questions we should dive into.

Here's the thing that we could get granular as we wanna get into this. And you mentioned tech and product and tools and rates and speed and automation and all all these things play a role. But let let's kinda it really rolls down to 2 things. Loan officers want one of 2 things. They either want to make more money doing the exact same amount of work that they're doing, or they want to make the same amount of money doing less work. Right. It's either you're you're like, I need to make more or money's fine. I'm just burnt.

And I think it really boils down to those those two areas is what what drives people to lead or think or leave or think that those solutions, they have to move outside for them. And sometimes sometimes they do.

In the last two and a half weird years had been weird for a lot of companies, a lot of companies.

So weird.

So weird. We went from the highest to the highest to the lowest to the lows very quickly. People who are closing a lot of business, a lot in their business has been cut down by, in some cases, guys, what we've seen, 80%, 75, 80%. But, yeah, I agree with you, Tom. It's make more money or do less work, especially for a more seasoned LO.

Yeah. We've seen some companies reinventing themselves too. You know, lost big key producers, but, you know, many of them rebounded and brought big key producers in. And so it's a different cultural shift, and you have different people working for different leaders. And, you know, I think a lot of that's happening. You know, this was a you know, kudos to the companies and the leaders that that retain their Salesforce over the last couple of years. I would absolutely say that this is probably the the toughest retention period that we've seen in a in a 24 month span. Absolutely.

Ever. Entire history of our business, the toughest retention span. Right? Because people get frustrated. And today's point, right, there there's not a lot of looking inward and the market's down and peep people wanna have some sense of control over their business. And what's the thing that they can change? It's, well, where do I hang my shingle? Right? Where where am I working with? So that gives them some sense of control that they're gonna be proactive and change their business, I think. So if you can, work around that and retain your people and if you have in this market, absolutely kudos to you to to those companies.

How does the LO know he's got the him or her know that they're at the right place? I mean, that's an end to our question.

The flip side of that, I think, to to dig into, and I'm interested to hear you guys, is what's, like, what's your nonstarters? How do you know when it's time to go? Like, what are the signs? Right? It's gonna be different for everybody, but there's there's some concretes out there. Right?

Mhmm.

I know for me and and the the as I look back on any moves I've made, it was either, a, operational challenges that did not get addressed and corrected. Right? Difficulty closing loans, missing closing dates, things of that nature. Or, b, to Tom like, Tom's talking about being able to, make more money by doing the same business. I was trying to implement things to build my team, and I got railroaded. I I got stuck. I wasn't allowed to, you know, put a scale piece in. I couldn't scale. Exactly.

So those those 2 for me are kinda non like, if if those two things go sideways, I'm picking up the phone and having conversations.

Well, you know, with leadership of an organization too, so much was kinda swept under the rug the last couple years. Leadership and ownership didn't wanna talk about specific the issues and stuff like that. And I think sometimes with ownership, you want people who are heavily invested and have a big chunk of their net worth and life savings in the company. Right?

Well, it's ownership.

They are

all in. They are all in.

Ownership or leadership or then sometimes problem becomes a number of layers between all that, you know. But, you know, as you guys know, I spent a lot of time talking to originators. I think I feel like I get a good temperature out there. And, you know, one of the early on questions I like I like to ask is, you know, tell me about your relationship with your leadership. And it'll tell me everything about if that person is going to move and be one of the ones that moves in the next 3 years or not. It tells everything about it. Now I hear a lot of, well, I was recruited by this guy, but then he got let go or he left and took this big chunk of production out. And then he tried to pull me to this company, and I've been assigned to this other manager.

And, you know, he's cool. You know, we talked a few times, you know, but it you can tell that they're not getting guided. They're they're not getting, you know, shot straight. They don't feel a partnership. And, you know, in this much more remote now time that we're in, loan officers have more independence. And not that good leadership micromanages that, but it's it's helping them. It's showing them a path. It's it's trying to pull them down that path.

And I I see a lot of people just unsure where to turn kinda like squirrels right now. You know?

Squirrels on the road. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think, you know, we we talk about that too. Right? I think this goes hand in hand. There's just severe lack of leadership in our industry. And you get these originators that are, you know, out on an island. They they, you know, put their faith and trust in someone to make a move, and then they look up that someone's gone, and they're they're kinda on an island and trying to figure it out on their own.

And, that's tough. That's a tough spot to be in. Oh, yeah.

I can't remember who said it, but overpromise and never deliver, you know, between the tech, the leadership, the rates, a lot a lot of people get a 90 or a 180 day rate sheet where their rates pop up. I mean, that that would be devastating if you came on board with a certain expectation. And then, 6 months down the line, everything changes.

Why do let's ask. Let's I'm curious about this. Why? Like, why why do recruiters and and leaders in our industry pull this crap?

Honestly. Like, honestly Because once they bring them in the door, the the they're just there's no there's there's no accountability toward towards them. Right? So they bring in the wrong

think people are just gonna take it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they've signed a 1 or 2 year contract, and we all know it's hard and emotional to move, so they think they got them by the hooks. I mean, ethically, that's just that's just awful. Horrible.

And and I I know one of the things we talk about. Right? And it's it's true. Like, I'm never, like, I've never recruited someone and blown smoke because it doesn't in our business, like, it doesn't take a real long time to be here and know that what I told you wasn't true and I blew smoke. And I don't feel good

at that. I can look you in the eye again.

We're having that conversation. Like, I don't wanna do that.

Yeah. Yeah. No.

So we we we touched on it. We got away from it a little bit. How how do you know when you're in the right place?

So so I think so much of that is subjective in in how you feel while you're there. And and we kinda

touch gut. Right? Some of it's feeling. Right?

Some of it's gut, but some of some of it's introspection. If if you have a good leader, sales manager, ops leader, you can kinda get the feel from them, and and they can give you a gut check as well too. Like, you know, hey hey hey, Robert. You're full of it. You know, tighten up a little bit. Make some more calls.

I I think, first of all, I mean, I'll I'll say if somebody is in these three areas, if somebody is in a position that they feel like they can grow, they can give amazing service, and they have balance in their life, they shouldn't consider leaving. There's there's no amount of money a company can pay them or no tech or nothing that they should be able to be sold on because those three things, that's that's your harmony. And that that means your whole not just your business is good. Like, your life is good. When you can grow, it means you're making good money. You're providing good service. You're going to work. You're not stressed out.

You're you're proud of what you're doing, and that that's and and you're balanced, which means things at home are good, you know, and and and you're not a slave to your job. Don't change employers. Bottom line. You're good.

Don't even take the call. Don't don't even don't even open Pandora's box because listen. It's it's going to here's here's what I'd say all the time. Right? Don't if you're not looking to make a move, if you're not in a spot where you think, hey. I need to look at this, don't even open the door because it's a distraction. If you are in a spot where you need to look at making a move, open the door fully, pick 4 or 5 places, and and start having conversations. Like right? Like, I think that's important too.

I think too. I mean, you know, let's say you're a branch manager and you want to build a half a $1,000,000,000 branch. Right. Or let's say you're a loan officer and you're doing 30,000,000. You're on a path. Like, you got hard set goals to get to a 100,000,000. I I think if you don't look within the organization you're in and you see those success stories happening, the path is not there at your company. Right? So you you have to force pave that path there.

Reinvent the wheel is what I hear, Tom. Right? Don't reinvent the wheel.

Well, and make sure make sure that we're if that's the journey you wanna go on. What and we could go on so many tangents with this. Right? Because first of all, you gotta know where you wanna go. Like, you you gotta have a goal of what you're building to and what you where you wanna take your business. Right? So we talked to so many LOs who have no idea. Right? So that's where you gotta start. But if if you know like, if you're doing $3,000,000 a month and you're an LO that wants to do $10,000,000 a month and there's nobody at your company doing that, like, that's something to look around. Right? You're not gonna reinvent the wheel, but the wheel is not at your company.

You gotta go to the company that's got the wheel that you can use. Right? I use the analogy all the time with people that most originators that we talk to are really smart, and they will figure it out over time. Yeah. But at what opportunity cost? At what stress cost? Like, you're at the you're at the base of a forest with a machete in your hand, and you gotta chop through the other side. You're gonna get there.

Yeah.

But you may that that next opportunity may have already pushed a road through, paved it, and have a Ferrari sitting there for you to jump in.

You know, when you look at that too, I mean, you know, looking at what what a company has to offer, the people that are touching your loans, the resources that you're given, the success stories that they told told you, which lured you there, like, how do they help you put that into action to create those same successes? You know, that's really what it comes what it comes down to. Feel like a lot of people I hear just like you know, a lot of people just feel like they're in a in a kind of a stagnant environment. Like, you know

Stagnant a lot.

I think a lot of people have been told one thing by leadership, seen another, lost a little bit of trust, you know, looking around, like, what are we doing? We're not growing. We're, you know, they're a little unsure. You see so many mergers and acquisitions happening today, and it's an uncertain time. I think that's also what makes people not move. Like, that that's some of the hesitation of, like, I've you know, originators are scared to make a move, and then the company gets bought by another company. You know? That would be terrible. Can you imagine that, guys? You make a move. You sell your referral partners.

Why this company is so great? And then 2 months later, you you wake up, and and there's a company called, and you just got acquired.

Listen. I I live that. I work for a company that got bought by a bank. Right? And as we're navigating those waters and figuring out, they got that bank up bought by another bank.

Yeah. It's different when you've been with that group a long time because you can be like, hey. It's the same people. We're moving together. It's you know, we we got stronger type of thing. But, like, you know, it's like you're the new guy there, and then you just got jerked around. And, yeah, that's that's a tough one. But there's a lot of people that have been through that, and, I think, you know, people's Dave, you said something early, earlier on in the call about people that took, like, big paychecks.

And I think a lot of them, like, aren't they're not look I I they're not that's not what they're looking for this go around. That's not what they're looking for in their next home. They're not looking for the next 2 year contract. We aren't contract employees. I don't know what happened to our industry to where it

It happened, what, a decade ago? 8 years ago? People. Like, the legal red tape, the signing bonuses and then the non solicits and the noncompetes and the like, I've seen some crazy stuff out there. Right? Stuff I would like, I'm like, did you even read this before you signed it? What were you thinking? Have you guys talked to anyone that that took a, you know, a a large payday from one of the let's be real. 1 of the the the bigger companies. Right? We know they were just writing fat checks. Have you guys talked to anyone that has was like, man, I'm really happy here. I'm really glad I took all this money and came here. I haven't talked to a single person.

I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure they're out there. I'm not trying to poke the bear. I'm sure they exist. I have not met one that's like, yeah. I'm really happy here, and, know, that money was just kinda the gravy on top. Everything else is amazing.

Everyone seems to be moderately happy or not happy at all and waiting waiting for their contract to, expire. Well,

look. When you took that money in early 22, like, changes were going to happen. Your business also went, you know, down pretty significantly, you know? So, you know, I think it's just it's been on that's been an unsettling time period for those those people because they came in and then, you know, the floor fell out on us and, you know, and changes happen. They're working through those changes with people that hadn't even established a trust you with yet. You know? And and that trust was lost, and and then they're fighting from that day forward to gain it back. And and you got them on a 2 year contract and the and the time is ticking. You know? It's a

lot of moving pieces all at once.

Yeah. You know? Look, you don't retain when their time's up. You retain I think leadership retains people by the little things they do every single day. You know? You don't just go into retention mode. You're always in retention mode. And and as a leader, I I would I recruit my own people first. We recruit our own people first, you know, because we put a lot in them. I'd I'd rather not lose somebody than bring somebody else in.

You know?

It's so much easier to keep the talent that you have and help them do an extra, you know, 2 or 3 units a month than to to go out and get somebody to move. And, you you know, we love doing that too, but it's like, you gotta take care of your people. That's leadership. Right? Yeah. So we talked a little bit about the average time that Anello moves, right, the two and a half year mark or so. Is is there any thought or or conversation around you can be somewhere too long? Do you guys think that, like, there's a there's a a measurement where you're like, okay. I've been here 8 years. I need to go see what's out there because I've been here so long.

If if you time. Yeah.

I I don't think there's a time period. Right? As Tom mentioned, if if your business is good, your balance, your home life is good, you could be at the same company your entire career. Right? But I think some companies, depending on their journey, sometimes may get a little get a little stale for lack of a better word. You know, that they need to refresh the entire operation Unless there's growth in leadership within the organization, things can kinda just kinda fade away. No. I I agree. I think, you know,

I think as originators, we have to be invigorated daily. Right? Like, we have to be motivated. It's a hard job.

You know?

It's a hard job. And especially looking back on the last 2 years, like, you literally kudos to everyone out there listening who's still an originator. Right? Who who has went through the last 2 years. When I tell you that it's the most difficult market that's ever existed in the mortgage lending space, I'm like, it's a 100% the most difficult. I've been in this business over 20 years, you know, through the crash, the the great recession, all of that. The what we have experienced the last 2 years is the most difficult market we've seen.

Humbled and humbled. And No doubt.

Those of you who who have grinded it out and made it, kudos to you. You should be really proud of yourself because you got up every day and you went to work and you did what you needed to do while getting your teeth kicked in by the market, by no refis, by no purchase business, you know, by just all of it, and you persevered. So you should be proud of yourselves.

And then there's there's those that are just gonna survive till 25, but, like, some are thriving in 24. And and extra kudos to those, like,

you know We see it.

Because, yeah, I see some people having their best years. That's, like, that's really inspirational. And I don't care if that person's been an originator for 2 years or or they just figured out how to turn it up in in their 10th year of their their career and and have one of their best years on this year. Those stories are out there. I know some of those stories. We've seen them both. Everyone can learn from those people. And and and what you always find is that, you know, you make a bigger deal out of things than they do.

They the rate game's not in their head. The you know, somebody said make x amount of dials, talk to x amount of people. It equals this. And and they went and did that. And they're like Okay. Like, oh my god. This this works. And then they just went and did it again and again and again.

And, you know, man, they're the soldiers out there, in a in a really tough environment. And I think that's they're just feeling that own word momentum that the wind's behind your sails versus, like, pushing against it is what's I think a lot of people put themselves in a position. You know?

And when I see people like that, it's it's honestly inspiring. It it it makes me think I need to double down and go after it and grow. Person.

Tell me what you're doing. Like, I wanna hear from them.

What are you doing? You're doing it for 18 months.

What are

you doing? Different.

I love it. So, you know, we talked about the the checks, the sign on money kinda being a draw for people, and, you know, let's be real. That that was probably for for a lot of people who moved in late 21 or early 22. That that probably played a a part in it. That's not really in the market as much now. We're not seeing it. What are you guys seeing that is kind of the differentiator that originators are looking for? They've said, okay. I can't scale here.

I can't grow. I can't do the things. I don't have the balance. It's time for me to make a move. Here are the the nonnegotiables that I'm looking for as I make a move. What are you guys seeing that those things are?

What LO are we talking about? Are we talking about, high producing LO? Are we talking, you know, under 25,000,000 or over 25? Does it doesn't matter. Are are they different?

Yeah.

And if

they are, let's let's let's put them in buckets and kick it around.

I mean, it it does matter. Go ahead, Tom.

I think the higher level producer is looking to find a company that more gets behind them than them kinda get behind the company. You know, there's a big focus today on, you know, the modern originator, creating your own brand, you know, and and there's companies that support that, and there's there's those that don't. And then I think, you know, people went through that, like, change in companies, companies acquired, things like that. So they're they're they're a little sensitive to their name change, so they really wanna affiliate mortgage team. The these brands have become have become more important to the larger producing teams, and then they wanna they wanna see that path towards the next level that that they're trying to get to. That that's what I see on the on the

high that next level may be. But you see with those higher producers, they have some target or some goal of where they wanna drive to.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Most post top producers don't end up there by It's

not happenstance.

As we know.

Yeah. Dave, what are you seeing on this on the, you know, the smaller producers? Let's say sub 20,000,000.

You know, some fuzzy things that's hard to quantify. They're looking for energy. They're looking for someone to guide them. They're looking for someone to show them the way. Right? You know, the conversations that I have are, how did you get here? Tell me what to do. So

so this is back to you that ask for Dick's future. Right? Like, making sure there's examples of what you wanna achieve. Exactly.

They're also looking for they're they're looking for marketing support. Like, your bigger producers, they have some, you know, built support within their teams, and then they make more money. So they're investing in in sort of their marketing. But the 3 to 5 loan a month originators trying to figure out how to market, and and they don't really they realize they don't know how to, and they realize they kinda need to. And and look, guys. You guys see loan originators post this video that you see it on your scroll, and they got 4 hours into editing that thing. And, you know, they put took 4 hours to post that 30, you know, second video that, you know, 78 people watched a quarter of.

Not a good use of their time.

No. We make a make call 40 people in that time. Good lord. Like, there's an easier path. And so I I I think that, you know, you can still make the calls, and there's other resources that other organizations have to help kinda solve that. But, you know, in the end of the day, like, there's certain things that make us money and and hours and spending time doing video in in in the mortgage business doesn't relate. Doing video does relate. You have to be able to figure out how to do it efficiently.

You know? Whatever it is, you know, we have to figure out how we're focusing on what what makes us money. You know, what what what makes that originators business tick and grow and be doing that. And, really, that's the grunt work behind, like, marketing. It's more just, you know, getting on executing on it.

What do you see there, Robert?

Yeah. I mean, I I think it, you know, it varies a little bit from LO to LO. I think it is important to talk about it kinda segmented by production because what they're looking for, you know, is is different. I I think we've touched on a lot of it. You know? I think I think a lot of originators tend to focus on asking about product, right, and price. What's your doctor's loan?

Do you have a doctor's loan?

Yeah. Yeah. Hey. Tell me about your one time closed construction. Hey. That's a that's a great question. I'm glad you asked. How many of those did you close in the last 12 months? Well well, 0.

I haven't ever closed one, but I wanna know, do you have it? Right? So I think that they do that because they don't know what else to do, what else to ask, right, maybe necessarily. It's like it's like when a client calls and says, hey. What's your interest rate? They don't care about the interest rate, honestly. They what they really wanna know is what's my payment going to be. But all they know like, all what they've been taught to ask is what's your rate? So that's what they ask. It's the same thing with, you know, with people when they start to make a move. So, you know, I think really looking at where you wanna take your business, if you're out there thinking about making a move, really working looking where you wanna take your business and what is going to help you facilitate taking your business to wherever you wanna go is that the leadership that we've talked about. Right? Is it scalability? Is it having that ops support, the marketing support that that is kinda plug and play? Right? It all comes back to a few basic things, and it's what are you good at? What makes you money? What do you enjoy doing? If you can get your sphere of work to focus on those three things and everything else is kinda handled by someone else, you're gonna have the balance.

You're gonna make the money. You're you're gonna have all the things you're looking for. You have to determine what those are as you're looking and and starting to have conversations to make a move. So I see a lot of people ask stuff that is what I would call details. Like, they're important, but it's should not be the driver. And sometimes there's too much focus on that. Does that make sense?

It does. And, you know, you touched on op support. I think the bigger producers wanna know that they have someone they can go to and get their transactions done without a lot of drama. I mean, we're we're in a imperfect business because we're in a people business, so transactions are gonna go sideways for a 1,000 different reasons. But

it's Mhmm.

How how it's handled and executed and how quickly it's done.

Well, I think the the great companies, the companies that retain, the companies that attract and retain, had figured that out and and get this simple foundational principle to it. Right? Like, if you're an originator and anytime there's a challenge on your loan, which we all know happens, right, that challenge falls back into your lap and you have to stop what you're doing and you have to figure it out and you have to get in the weeds on it, that equates business to problems in your mind, in your in your psychologically, right, which is gonna create an aversion to you and go you're going to get more business. You're gonna think the more deals I have, the more problems I have. I don't want deals because that equals problems.

So You're being punished for getting more transactions

and

being successful.

Yeah.

If you don't have the right support.

If you don't have the right support. So when you with the companies that figure out that, hey. When that happens, we're gonna engage and we're gonna fix it for you. I

listen to hands.

Don't don't be putting crap in. Right? But you got a support team behind you. Go get more business. That's like, those are the places that we see people excel and stay.

Yeah. You know, we probably could've took some of the 4 sections that we did in this in this talk and made it each of those a talk in in its Talk

in and of itself.

Tom, that's a great idea, brother, for the next podcast.

But, actually, so we we should end on something. And since we're here to provide value and and and resources, Robert, I think a great way to end, you would ask the question or you had said that law officers don't know what questions to ask. Let's let's spit fire a few questions that they should ask if they're speaking to other companies or, you know, speaking to their own company about trying to, you know, determine are they're in the right place? What couple of questions. Let's fire off, guys.

Here's here's one of my favorite. It's not a question, but, if you're before you join anywhere, anytime, you should randomly pick up the phone and call 4 to 5 loan officers that work

with you

and have a conversation with them. Absolutely. Have a have a open frank, hey. I'm interested in looking at onboarding with your company. I'm an originator. I have some questions that I'd like to ask you. Yeah. How's your operations process? How do you feel do you feel supported? What's your leadership like? What's your business planning like? You know, what's the most important piece of tech that helps you grow your business? Where were you when you started, and where are you now?

If they were selling you something within the platform, ask if if

Is is there anything that they told you that would happen that hasn't happened? Yeah. You know, that that have you been overpromised and never delivered?

You know, you should also look at how long has they been you know, talk to people that have been 4 plus years with the company or and then talk to people that have been there 90 to a 120 days. We don't have that data. We can look in red or we can look we can see how long people have been in our company, and and I'd highly recommend that. Maybe even going outside of the list that sometimes they give you that, you know, they may

have Don't go off the list.

Pretty random way. Don't go

off the list.

Go find them online and pick up the phone and say, hey. I'm I'm talking to your company and got a few questions if you don't mind. I think that's, dude, that's great advice, Robert.

What's yours, Dave?

You know, what kind of support you're looking for? If if you want if you're a loan officer doing 3 to 4 transactions a month, how do I get to 10? Do I get an assistant slash loan partner LOA? I think those are important questions to ask, and then to talk to people who have been on that journey within the company to see what it looks like. Someone who went from 3 loans to 10 loans. Because a lot of times people get promised assistance. They get to that number, they break their back, and and they don't get it. So I I think that's an important question, and then, you know, ask is is this is this the real rate sheet, or is this the 90 day rate sheet?

That's a great question. I mean, we can

hear that over and over

again over and over again

at lows, and I'm just blown away. And sometimes it's not even a slow burn up. It's just one day,

it changes. We got them. Smarmy, slimy, like, just I don't why why are lenders out there not more transparent with their pricing? Like, do they feel they don't bring enough value to justify the money they're everybody knows we're making money. We're not in this isn't a not for profit industry.

Yeah. Like, why why aren't we just transparent with it?

Yeah. And and when you lie to LOs or mislead them, you have unhappy people, and it's a it's and then it's it's a constant thorn. So it's just our philosophy is it's just not worth it. Not worth it.

Yeah. How about you, Milzy?

Dave actually took mine. I'll go you know, in the end of the day, I think we're all led by stories. I I think stories are what sells. Right? You know? And and what inspires people. So, you know, there's some story that was told about that organization that, you you know, is attractive to you and you wanna go, like, live that story. Just, you know, validate it. You know? Whatever whatever it is that has you ready to go make a commitment to that company, be sure of it. Like, look for validation.

Like, look that there's proof. You know, even small smaller, I don't know granular ever. You know, I mentioned, you know, is somebody doing a 100,000,000 or somebody doing the look for that path, validate that that it's happening there. But, you know, the the the things that you question, validate them. The things that you're attracted to, make sure that they're what you were sold them to be. You know, from there, I think a lot of, you know, a lot of questions on the person that you report to and and their their actually ability to help make decisions and react. Because I see, you know Which

juice do they have?

Yeah. They get they

get stuff done.

Can they

have facts?

Go to them, and can the answer be had? Or they have to schedule 3 meetings to get the answer, and it wasn't important to this guy, and this guy's traveling next week. And it's a month later, and you're like, hey. What's going on with that? You know, we we we we we've talked to people like that. So nothing in this community is a good time.

That's good.

You'd really understand what your chain of command. And and does the guy you're going to, does does he is he does he have any influence there? Because he's gotta fight for you. You need your leader to fight for you in in any in this business, in any company. That's the truth.

100%. Hey. Listen. Thanks so much, guys, for for joining us, and hopefully, you found some value in this episode. Go ahead and smash that subscribe button. Give us a like. Make sure you tune in for, the upcoming episodes. We're gonna continue to just kick it around and hash out topics and, hope hopefully bring some value to your day.

Before we close, guys, I I just noticed this. Are you are you both wearing EA appraisal swag?

I I I guess we are.

Oh, yeah.

Look at that. I I filled up for that

mail last week.

Hey. Hey. Shout out to to the best appraisal management firm in the company, EA Appraisals. Our boy, Will Eubanks, are down in Dallas, Texas. I got this shirt dropped on me last week. I guess, Dave, you got I felt special. I thought I was the only one that got the shirt.

I got we just noticed that now. I've watched about a hoodie too.

I got a nice swag pack too. I didn't know I I didn't get the email the memo from you guys we were gonna do this though.

I was with you guys the other day, and I was gonna bring my EA appraisal shirt, and I didn't wanna make you, like, feel offended. So I'd I wore I wore my HMA shirt,

but Alright. We'll we'll need to sponsor the next podcast then it sounds like.

Will you, Banks, we appreciate you, man. You and Manny, tell tell us Mexican you'll ever meet. Appreciate you guys. What a great conversation, guys. I really appreciate the topic and, enjoy just kicking it around with y'all as always. Hey, if you're out there listening and we brought any value to your day at all, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and be sure to join us here for, for every episode of lending leadership with the mortgage pros. On behalf of Dave Holland and Tom Mills, this is Robert Fillyaw, and, thanks so much for joining us. Great

conversations. Thanks, guys.