Challenges and Opportunities: Lessons from the Mortgage Business with Tom Mills

Hey everybody. Welcome back to lending leadership. I'm Rach, your host today. And I'm psyched because we've got Tom Mills here, little bit of a different setup with these bonus episodes, where it's a sneak peek into getting to know the leadership and your hosts of Lending Leadership. So Tom Mills, managing partner of HMA Mortgage. Hey, buddy. How are you?

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. How about yourself? Excited for today. Usually, I'm battling through these guys to get a chance to talk, but, I I don't know what you're going to throw at me. And I came guns blazing prepared, so let's go.

Yeah. You know, that's a that's that's a good thing you brought that up. I love the dynamics of the 3 guys, you know, you, Robert, and Dave. And and it is kinda nice to have this one on one time with each of you to just have your spotlight, your time. I mean, you're each really dynamic leaders and have lots to say. But, yeah, you know, it's nice to not have to totally share the spotlight. You'll have to share the spotlight with me.

Yeah.

That's okay. I'm a good sharer.

Let's be real. It's a total excuse for our inability to get coordinated for the 3 of us to be in a place to do this podcast together, so we're kinda breaking off in these 1 on ones, which, hey. You know, not a bad idea. I get it. We can roll with it.

We can roll with it.

Things have been hectic lately, and, people are all over the place, but, things are good. And, you know, we gotta we gotta keep the podcast moving. We committed to it, and, I know that, you know, we've gotta get these done.

Well, you know, it's really interesting you say that, Tom, because that is such, that that really is what leadership is about. You know? We we created a goal. We really wanted to do this podcast, but nothing's linear. Right? And nothing ever works out so perfectly with, like, we think it's gonna work out, but that's one of the rules of leadership, isn't it? You know, you gotta keep going. And if it doesn't work out the way you think it's gonna work out, well, we get to write the rules here.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's no, exact playbook, so you don't, you know, just the plays get thrown at you and you've gotta react to them and

Well, I mean, who better than you to know that, right, in this in this industry and really any industry when you're managing partner or you're in a leadership position, you get thrown a lot of curve balls. And and, I mean, we have our ideas of how we want our day to go and our week to go or months to go, but a lot of times that doesn't work out like that. I mean Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I I visualize that perfect day. Right? But I'm very prepared for, you know, the wheels to fall off at any time or, you know, know that things don't necessarily go perfect. But that's that's how you visualize it. You do prepare. There's something to be said for that. And and, you know, when you have that, you know, put things in place for perfection, you're more likely to achieve it, but perfection really rarely exists in this industry.

In in anything. And I think giving yourself grace and being like, hey. This is our game. We get to roll with this how we want. So

That's right.

I think that really speaks to your leadership styles, you know, not being so rigid, but, like, having a plan, but then being able to fill in the gaps where you need to.

Calm, cool, collected. Let's keep it moving.

That's right. Okay. Alright. So so my first my first official question is, you know, what's one thing that people about you by just looking at your LinkedIn profile? You know, sometimes on the the corporate side of Tom Mills or the corporate side of any leader, we have the the image that we present in the facade, but what what's something that people maybe wouldn't know about you?

Probably, you know, the reality is I'm not the most interesting man, so I'm not that hard to figure out. It's kinda what you see is is what you get. I know you have, been telling me I'm not active enough on social media. I don't bring out my leadership enough on on social media. I do have, you know, a light presence and, and whatnot, but I'm not the, I'm not the what they call the thought leader today on social media, you know, and I think so I would go down that path maybe. I am more of a thought leader, more relevant, to understanding this industry and, what originators need and branches and what it takes to be successful. I I would say they have a lot more to provide on that than my social media would say. You know, and I think the reason I say that is like, you know, I think people they like that term thought leader, you know, a lot of people, you know, are are really active on social media, you know, with posts every day or intriguing conversation that, you know, brings all these these eyeballs to them and and, you know, people into the conversation.

It's not really my style. You know? So I would say that, you know, I'm a I'm a thought leader, but I'm very, you know, very in the trenches, not really putting thoughts out there into the universe and hoping someone catches into it and we can have conversation. I'm more about, you know, strategic thought. As you know, I'm very, you know, very connected with our Salesforce, very connected with, you know, our operations, very connected with, you know, marketing, very connected with originators and the needs in trying to grow business and market. And I would I would say that if you look at my, you know, profile, you know, and and I wouldn't say this. You've told me this. You don't you don't necessarily see that.

You know that it's funny because I had forgotten that, but it it's kind of the reverse, you know, and sometimes people are putting so much out there, but then there's I don't know, they're missing something. So I'm

definitely doing more than I'm talking about. Now some people could be talking about more than they're doing, but I know I'm definitely doing more than I'm talking about. But in fairness, I'm not there talking about a whole lot.

Yeah. Well and and which is better? I mean, maybe it's it's not there's a there's a lot of people what was it, The Wizard of Oz quote, from the Scarecrow? You know how much I love The Wizard of Oz. That the Scarecrow says, you know, people with no brains do an awful lot of talking. So I would rather be someone who is the thought leader doing doing the work and and and in the trenches in the day to day, but not necessarily out there talking about it, showing it. I mean, that's important too. But, yeah, there's that's where we come in in marketing, and we're we're trying to help all of our leaders boost it up a little bit and and and show what they're they're doing because you are. You are constantly I mean, I've seen your calendar. It's it's all day.

You're you are in the trenches with with your staff, with your team every day.

I love what I do, fortunately.

Yeah. Fortunately.

Very fortunately.

What if you didn't love what you do? What would you do? What would you be doing?

Tell you, you know and you really you know, I I feel blessed that I ended up loving an industry that's that's, you know, very rewarding, in many ways. You know? But it that's a great question, because I you know, as you as you grow older in life, you know, you hear that when you're younger, you know, as you grow older in life, like, that resonates a lot more. Like, you really understand. I know. I'm sad for people that don't do something that they love. Get out and change. Do something you love, folks.

Yeah. I know. I think life's too short to be in just a a rut or be that hamster on a wheel. If you don't like it, change it. And I guess that's easier said than done. It takes a certain kind of person encouraged to do that. But for the people that are doing that and love what they do and maybe took a step out and took a risk, good job. Good job on you.

And and you took a risk, Tom. You know, this past year, you decided to to leave an organization and start something on your own. I know it hasn't been easy, but what path to success is?

Oh, yeah. I mean, you you've gotta, you know, get outside your comfort zone, take some risk, calculated risk. But, yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people, you know, haven't done that in their career. I bet they look back on their career more and and say I wish I would, and I I really don't want to, live with that mentality. You know? And anything that I really do is I wish. I think it's all just, you know, part of the process. Just, you know, sometimes, you know, losses come, you know, along the way as part of as part of winning, you know, but, yeah, I've been, been pretty pretty fortunate. I had a pretty good, this industry's treated me pretty well.

Yeah. That's true. I like what you just said. You know, in order basically, in order to win, you gotta lose sometimes. And, again, no journey is linear. It's not just, oh, well, I moved from point a to point b and it was just so seamless and everything worked out. You know, there are setbacks, but there are there's a lot of reward too. So going along that that mentality and that idea, I always like thinking about the fact that if you could time travel, you know, if you go back in time to that 1st year in the mortgage business, what's one piece of advice that you would just slap on a sticky note and put on your your desk as a as a kid getting in this industry? What's one piece

of advice? Speaking me speaking to me?

To you. Yes. Okay.

I, you know, I think I would tell myself that you're saying my 1st day in the business. Right?

Yeah. 1st day. 1st first I mean, really just 1st year in the mortgage industry, 1st experience. Yeah.

You know, I think back, you know, when a lot of people get into something, they're really excited about it. They're all in it. They wanna learn. They wanna embrace. They're trying to, you know, absorb as much as they can absorb. And I was definitely that guy. And I would say to always be that guy, and I'll always have that, like, day 1 mentality of there's more to learn. You can get sharper.

How do I do that? You know, I I think I went through a a gap in my career where, like, I think I had, like, immediate success. I I did have some immediate success, so it made me kinda take some things for granted a little bit. And and I was fortunate to kinda have success without really sharpening up. But, you know, when I started to, I guess, invest in myself more, whether it's time or education or coaching, it's really when I took off. You know, I've had a 20 year career that, you know, the first ten were like, great, you know, but, is it you know, I think I learned so much in those first ten. And then, what I learned is I need to keep learning, and I needed to not get complacent, you know, and not think I was the best or, there was a long way to go. There's there's, people doing amazing things in this business. I wasn't taking any note of them when I was when I was, you know, younger in my 1st 10 years.

So I think I was just, like, comparing me to me or me to my friends and but, I realized, hey. There's ways to get better out there. I I adopted a little different mindset that really had a play I think played a significant role in the next 10 years.

That's really honest. You know? I think, gosh. You know, when success comes really easily and quickly, sometimes we can have that you know, maybe it's a good swagger to develop, but you don't wanna have that cocky swagger that that then, you know, you hit that ceiling, because it's great to have that success early on. But that's really honest. I mean, to always have that that sense of wonder and that sense of excitement as you do when you're first starting something is really important. And, yeah, I like how you said invest in yourself.

Yeah.

You know, a lot of times people will see something and it's like, oh, I don't wanna shell out money for this, but it's a mindset. It's a perspective. If if you're looking into coaching and it's just, oh, I don't wanna pay money for that versus, oh, I'm investing in myself, much different mindset, much different perspective.

Yeah. I mean, assessing ROI, believe in yourself. If you hire the best coach, do you think you can get better? I mean, you know, I think it takes a really stubborn, close minded person to say no to that. Outside of that, though, you know, I would say to me, from that very first loan I closed, keep record of that of of all my funded database. And, you know, most loan originators at some point in their career started really, you know, maintaining a database. But I think also most of them that have been, you know, 10, 15, 20 year veterans of the business look back and it's like there was a gap of where they don't have that and didn't really understand the ability and the power in marketing to that. You know, I I would I would go back, know that from day 1, know that, you know, those hundreds of people on closing a year, they're they're gold, their friends, families, their coworkers. Their average person does, you know, 7 mortgage transactions in the course of their life.

They have multiple friends, family, coworkers. You know? I would have worked that database completely different from day 1.

Oh, wow. So when did you start I mean, it was a different game back then. Technology has moved

CRMs weren't the same, but, you know, look, people still I know people that did their mails every every month and, you know, it's the same concept. Right? At what point did I you know, certainly within the last 10 years, about when that point when I started saying, okay. There's more ways out here, and people are like, oh, you should be funding, you know, x amount of loans off a database like that. Wait. What? You know? So you start looking at what are those strategies. I always felt like, you know, staying in front, like, what I had always done was the strategy of rates drop. You know, let's call these customers these customers between this rate and this rate. They're eligible.

And, you know, instead of, like, closing, setting that expectation, like, you use those phrases in sales, like, I'm gonna be your lender for life, but then it was, like, you know, one night stand until I could, you know, potentially so I could do something for you again. That was the mentality that, you know, I'm part of my career. So I didn't really understand that I was building a business. You know what I mean? I didn't understand that every closing led to another closing, led to another relationship. Like, those concepts, they weren't they weren't engraved into me then. You know, I came into the industry in a time that, you know, it was subprime days. That was, you know, my first several years were were lead based, you know, where it was lower my bills, LendingTree, you know, direct mail. It was very transactional.

You know, it wasn't relational. They didn't come to me from a relationship. And, you know, it was multiple states. That was before state licensing laws were there. And, you know, even after that one in a place, you know, carried multiple state licenses. And that was a good living. It's a great way to come in the business. Great way to learn the business.

You got a lot of loans to work on. You know? I think I closed 11 loans my first my first month in the business. Like, people don't come in and do that today. You know? So, it was just different.

That's interesting that you bring that up, the the transactional experience versus the relational experience, because I feel like, you know, fast forward to where we are now, where where where do you think we are now? And where do you think we're going?

The relational businesses is the is the is the direction that the most successful will go. You know? And I think that it's even down to marketing. You know? When you think about a, you know, relations, you know, what how does that impact your business? Well, you know, your relationships are what brings opportunities your way, you know, realtor, builder, financial adviser, you know, your pass on to database, sphere of influence, you know, these relationships. And then, you know, relationships are who you depend on to to close your loans internally, and and, you know, and the team that you depend on. And you're doing it for customers that you're building relationships because you hope to do, you know, more transactions for them in a genuine way. And and then I think from a marketing perspective, that's important too. You know, when you think about it, today's generation, it's like they wanna do business with what they're attracted to. You know? Mhmm.

So if, you know, their favorite, you know, athlete starts wearing this brand and they're showing that on on Instagram, then they wanna wear that brand. So, you know, I think that how you build relationships, and with with your your customers and market to those customers, I think that that's that's very much what makes a a customer gravitate today towards a a loan originator or a, or a or a real estate agent. They, you know, they look at is is that somebody I like? You know? Yeah. And I think that's I think that's what moves, in marketing now. You know? People buy what they would like, the influencers, you know. And and not that I think mortgage or real estate agents are are here to be influencers because that's what they do for a living. But they want to be able to influence the type of customer that they're that they're trying to influence. So you can build a relationship with that customer before they have a need, that customer following you, finding valuable insights provided you're the subject matter expert.

Then when they have a need, they come to that subject matter expert. So I think, you know, building relationships before there's a need, is is is is key and really important. You know? Otherwise, it's a you know, how do you build a relationship once that once the kind of transaction starts? And then what do you do to build a relationship that, you know, creates more together?

So it's a lot of psychology too. Communication psychology. Yes. We have to know, our our craft and our trade and how to close loans, but a lot of it's how to foster relationships. Like

Yeah.

It is that one of the main differences that you see? Or maybe there's something else that you see between the good loan officers and then the exceptional loan officers.

You know, the more relationships you have, that are valuable relationships in those business, you and generally, the better you are. But, if we're you you you're asking me the difference between the good and the great, essentially?

Yeah. Yeah.

I'd probably I'd probably go back to where we were at just a little bit with that that day one mentality and that that constant burst of knowledge, that ability to pivot, you know, markets change, you know, staying in front of things. That that is absolutely what I would what I would say is the big difference. You know, it's a different level of of commitment that the top make.

Yeah. Because you have you've coached a lot of people. You've, mentored a lot of people in the industry. And sometimes it's I mean, this might be ridiculous, a cheesy analogy, but I always use the analogy of boiling water. Right? You know, if there's a one degree separation or freezing water. Right? There's a one degree separation between boiling and not boiling. And sometimes people just it's like, come on. Just push it just a little more, and that would push you over the top.

Like, I'm I'm sure you see that with people that you coach.

Yeah. You know, it it's it's not just, like, this extra more. It's just how much you do what it is that you need to do. It's the consistency that you do everything with, really. In addition to that mentality, it's it's about consistency.

Yeah. Gosh. That's with everything in life. Right? No matter what it is we want, whether it's doing anything better, going to the gym or, you know, whatever we want, it's that consistency.

Yeah. Most people, you know, most people want instant gratification on things and, like, best things is instant gratification really doesn't come. You know, you really work towards it, and you gain that through consistent efforts and, very much believe in that those concepts.

Yeah. I know. We do. We are an instant gratification kind of society where if I can't get what I want right away, then I move on to the next thing. And, yeah, the best things do still take time. And, you know, moving along, I guess, along those lines, I think I think every leader has maybe a mantra or a theme that they live by words that they live by. Do you have anything that drives you? Even just a simple, like, good old Nike, just do it. Do you have something that really drives you or that's your go to?

Oh, that focus on the controllables. Like, I've always you know, I think I was told that, like, I literally was told that in training and and my first job in the mortgage business with AmeriQuest Mortgage. I I remember that coming out and training, and I remember, you know, our, like, regional manager coming to office and having a talk about that and, like, focus on your controllables, you know, your effort, your attitude, your approach, your consistencies, your you know, that is, you know, that is a phrase I use very often. You know, I think it's, you know, anytime that that something it's a great phrase to use anytime, anything in life. Forget business is is tough. It's like, okay. What can I control? You know? And, you know, that that's generally how how I move on from any challenges. It's like, you know, I can't tackle maybe the whole challenge, but there's an aspect of that that I can control.

What can you do about that? And start to take control.

Yeah. I know. That's true. I need to hear that again. I'm in that phase of life where sometimes things are just out of your control, whether it's, you're right, family things or kids getting older or you know, I know recently in the past few years, you have really made an effort to even just get up and go to the gym every day. You know, that's something that you can control. And, I think that does play a part in leadership too. You know, just waking up and and having those you guys have talked about this, in the podcast also.

You know, having those things that are that are the nonnegotiables. Like, nope. We are not gonna cheat on ourselves with this, and I feel like that really does help to keep that sense of control.

Yeah. Yep.

So with this lovely industry that we're in, Tom, the mortgage industry that's constantly changing, what do you think is the biggest shift that you've seen in your career? I mean, granted that's probably a loaded question for what we've gone through the past few years, but but what do you think's been the biggest shift and and and how have you adapted to that? We've kind of had to be chameleons.

There's a reason for that. You know, there's a change happening. Business got different. It got tougher. It's a there's a little bit of a cleansing, a little bit of the strong survive, a little bit of, you know, that was oversaturated. It was looked at like this business, easy to come in and make relationships, and there's always easy to come in and make money. And and there's always times in this business that are really easy to come in and make money, and people are like, oh, man. Those mortgage guys or girls, you know, they've got it made, but they got it made, like, 2.5 to 3 out of every 5 years.

You know? And the rest of the times are really, really tough. So people came into the business, so it got more flooded than it was. You know, every car salesman, that, you know, weren't weren't selling cars. They're like, hey. Those mortgage guys are working from home, and people were shifting from different sales industries. I remember getting so many calls from different people I knew, but things changed. The industry changed. Never before have I seen, that statement of the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

Like, everyone had to change. If you were even going to stop your business from dropping by 50%, you had to make some changes. You know, your your staffing probably has changed over the last couple of years. You're you've had to make changes on how you market it. You know? Even in, like, times, like, the typical time in the business, like, you see, you know, the good easy times are when it was, like, 20% of the of of what is transacting in the mortgage business is refinancing. That's a great, like, stable place when you're transacting, like, 50% refi. There's never a world that, like, 50% refis are happening and purchases are down. So that's when things are, like, really, really crazy.

And, you know, I think it's just not just our business, but our whole lives kind of shifted, you know, in this time. Right? So it of course, you have to shift business to kind of align with life's changes and, you know, so much more people are remote now. You depend on more people remote now versus they're in the office. You know, it's just a lot different. In the last 2 years, I but I will say this. Without question, I've learned more in the last 2 years, than any other period of time in this in this industry that I've been in for 20 almost 21 years now. I've learned more in the last 2 years, hands down. And because, you know, that day one mentality, like, there's given me a lot to learn out there, you know, and learn and understand and comprehend and break it down and really understand what is happening.

You know, I really learned a lot, and I think that is, gonna be really key to leading to the next 10. You know, I opened up. We talked about how I wish I learned for the first 10, and then I, you know, spent the next, you know, 10 years learning. I'm really excited for the the impact and results of what that does for the for the next 10.

Do you think that mentality is true for those 90,000 some loan officers who are still in the business? Like, of those 400,000 loan officers who were here, if they got out of the business, the nineties something that are still left, Do you think that we all have to have that mentality? Like, is that is that the key differentiator between people who are still here and the ones who jump ship?

I believe, most likely, yes. I still think there's some that jump ship. I think too many people adopted the I say yes, but then, like, there's that whole, like, slogan out there, which I think is complete bullshit. Like, survive till 25. Like Yeah. If you're just in it to survive, like, you're probably really stumbling right now. Like, you're feeling like you're just surviving. You're not feeling anything that's really thriving.

That's the sign of a true champion in my book. When you can fall on your face and get up again and get up again and get up again, it's just the integrity and the the grit that that takes. I mean, that it's not for everybody. And and and I'm not faulting anybody who got out of the industry because of that, but wow. That like, that is a champion to me. What do you

think way more losses in this business than there is Yeah. There is wins. The the wins just so greatly outweigh the losses. Like, it's kinda like, you know you know, in baseball, if you bet 300, you're in the hall of fame. That means if you fail 7 out of 10 times, you know, you're in the hall of fame. And I would say this business is that's kinda what it looks like. You fail 7 to win 3, and and that that's a winner. You know? That's a hall of fame player.

I know. Not many, you know

How quick do those 10 come is the is the question. How how quick do you bring those 10 to get 3 to hit? You know, is the question, I think.

Yeah. What what do you think that people who are outside of the mortgage industry would be surprised to hear or maybe something that they completely misunderstood? You know, we have a lot of people who listen who are in a leadership role that maybe are in finance or maybe outside of maybe there are referral partners, realtors, insurance, or you know, who what do you think people would be really, surprised or or even just that they misunderstand about what we do. Is there a common misconception? I mean,

I I would say the grind, like, the amount of work it takes to close a loan, not just the amount of work, but the amount of people and processes and systems that are involved, you know, to every person that's involved to, you know, the verification is done behind the scenes, the, you know, the the deals that, you know, aren't perfect, to the amount of grind and hustle to to to get those deals done and get them done in time, nobody's paid until the the deal is closed. You know? I think sometimes, you know, customers don't think that about originator, you know, that they're they're not paid by the hour. You know, they get paid to close transactions and, you know, maybe certain customers abuse that and don't, you know, don't treat originators with respect like that. But the grind, the number of people that touch alone, you know, you've got your disclosure, your originators, your assistants, your disclosure people, your intake people, your processors, your closures, your, you know, your your title company, your, underwriters, your underwriting management, your your MI companies, your condo department, your, you know, on down the line, the post closing to, you know, the the the people that are shipping a file to, you know, the, the the loan being received by an investor sold. Like, there's a lot of a lot of steps along the way. It probably the outside looking in, there's it's really complicated. There's no way anybody not having any understanding of this business could look inside and realize how complicated it is to get that mortgage done. Like, Rocket Mortgage goes and sells, you know, Rocket Mortgage.

I mean, it's not press button and get mortgage. We we say that all the time. Like, that's not the world that we're in. We never quite will be. It's really about how easy you make it look. You know? And that's what you want for your customers. So sometimes that's great. We make it look really easy, but they don't have any understanding of how complicated it is.

So you're supposed to make it look easy for the customer. It's a lot to their experience. You know, they like to do things that are easy. You know, that's that's frictionless to them. But even on the most frictionless of transactions, there's there's friction happening within that that took to get there. So without question. Yeah. The the grind, the people, the the amount of work.

Yeah. Yeah. That's true. You know, forward facing, we always want the customer to to not feel that, but, sure, in the in the back end to see all the wheels turning together and all the hands that have to touch the file and and to make it seem like, okay. You know, behind the curtain, pay no attention. What's going on behind the curtain? Forward facing, we want them to feel really good. You know, just to wrap this up here, mister Mills, what's something looking into year 2 of this this whole, exciting journey we've been on, you know, what what's something that you are very excited about? Is there one particular thing that you look into this next year and think, I I can't wait to do this or all of the above. You can't wait to do everything.

Yeah. I mean, look, I'm supercharged up for, you know, this this next year. I mean, if I talk about HMA, I mean, we we're really coming into year 2. You know, since we kinda came together, took a different turn together a year and still a year ago, you know, we're returning to a year that, you know, we're over 300 employees. You know? We're 13 months ago, you know, that number was in the sixties. So, I think what I'm most excited about is the culture of those of those employees, you know, how that's being built. You know, we took a lot of steps on that in in year 1. You know? But we have a really clear vision.

I'm excited. You know, it's not like the vision ends or anything like that. I'm just I'm just, excited for the steps along the way, to to seeing that vision through.

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you, Tom. Thanks for this this, time you gave me today and insight. I think it's always nice to have, like I said before, this one on one time just to get to know our our hosts and leaders a little bit better.

Thank you for not throwing me a lot of curveballs. You really didn't make it too complicated today. I thought

I know.

I thought I did something real corny about, like, you know, if I if I was, an if I if someone was acting for me, you know, who would it be? And, you know, what's the scene a dramatic scene that that would be in? I thought I would get, like, some deep shit like that. So thanks for thanks for keeping it simple.

I don't think we'd be there. I feel like I should throw you a curve ball just for fun. You did that. You just did that. So now you're getting a curve ball because because I can't let you off the hook that easy because I was very tough on on everybody else. So how about this to end with? Because you just you just shot yourself in the foot. Ready for this one? Tom, if your leadership style were a coffee order, what would it be? Would it be something bold, something smooth, maybe a shot of espresso, maybe a coffee grande mocha. What what would your leadership style be if you were ordering at Starbucks?

That's that's interesting. I I'm just you know, I'm a a dark roast, bold, smooth, not too not too hit you too hard. But, yeah, I'm a just a just how I drink my coffee. Just my I'm a, you know, venti, hot, black, no room. I'm not putting any cream in that. That's kinda what I am.

Straightforward to the point. Get the job done. I like it. We're gonna end there. What a better place. Thanks, Tom. Hey, everybody. Make sure that you like and subscribe Lending Leadership.

We come at you every Wednesday, new episodes. And, thanks again, Tom. This is fun. Bye everybody.

Thanks, Rach. Bye everybody.